Messages re the UA MEC & FL MEC PDF file that Mark Ingram sent. Most participants were FL pilots at the time and some were serving in FL ALPA positions. UA had insisted that the two pilot groups come to an agreement before the purchase of FL by UA went any further. Since no agreement was ever reached, the UA purchase was called off.

Jake, I haven't read Billy's essay yet,
and I know he insists that the information in the attached UAL ALPA MEC document is false;
*but*, this report agrees almost item-for-item with the FAL pilots' legal committee
report from one year later, reproduced at the end of the PDF file.
If you would like to post this one on the site, be my guest.
Meanwhile, I still intend to make minor revisions to an article I wrote
in 1987 on the so-called "merger" of the FAL pilots into the CAL, and when
I ever get it done, I will send you a copy to post.
Keep in touch,
-Mark E. Ingram

Thanks, Mark, I appreciate the file.
I've downloaded it and will look at it tomorrow.
I would also appreciate your article when you finish.
Were you on the ALPA Committee at that time?

No, other than before things started going downhill so fast,
I *was* going to work on an ALPA newlsetter specific to FAL.
It never even got off the ground, however.

E-mail to Billy Walker:
Hi Billy,
Mark Ingram sent me this file on the UA-FL merger.
Have you seen it before? Any comments?

This looks familiar. Perhaps this is what the UAL pilots put together after our demise to try to save face?
Please send this to Frosty and Bob Williams to see if he knows the origins
since there appears to be no Title and no author to support this document.
I haven’t had time to read it yet (in MIA training), but will and then might comment.
However, I would like to know the ultimate source. Perhaps Mark could share that with us….
-Billy Walker

Can you send me Bob Williams' eddress. I don't have it.
Was he on the ALPA Committee then? I'll ask Mark about the origin/author(s).

Bob Williams was the executive administrator for ALPA (FAL).
I believe my MEC was the first to use this position outside national ALPA.
Doug Bader was the Vice-Chairman and Skip Taylor was the Secretary/Treasurer.
Bob was also on the negotiating team with Frosty, Dave Kaplan, Bill
Watkins, and Larry Helm. Pat Benoit was the ALPA administrator and Rich
Donholt the lawyer. Pat died recently after a lengthy illness.
I will never forget the sacrifice of these individuals for their
efforts to try to save Frontier. Of course there were many others. Pilots,
Agents, Flight Attendants, Dispatchers, and even some management types
that put forth great effort in the coalition's attempt to save our
great little airline.

E-mail to Mark
Well, that's quite a document you sent. VERY interesting!
Can you tell me who the author was and/or where it came from?
I may post it but would like to authenticate it someway.
Thanks for your help.

The last page was published by the FAL pilots' legal committee, after
roughly a year of litigation and/or discovery proceedings.
Roger Brooks was chairman of that committee, both at the time and thereafter.
The rest of this material was published by the UAL ALPA MEC, and
although it was distributed to all United pilots, and was reproduced elsewhere
at the time, it was never seen by most FAL employees.
I saw it in a Delta MEC newsletter that I still subscribe to, and got permission to
republish it during the ALPA organizing campaign back in 1993.
ALPA National no longer had the document on file, but I still did - and they printed it
at my request, and mailed it to as many FAL pilots for whom we had addresses.
If the UAL document is full of lies, then so is the FAL legal committee's laundry list of allegations.
Take care,

Dear Billy,
As you may recall this pamphlet was put out by the UAL MEC right after
the merger deal went down the dumps. As I remember they (UAL MEC) was taking
a lot of heat from their own members, as well as other ALPA airlines, about
the way the FAL pilots were treated and they put this out to deflect some of
the heat.
It is very slanted and reminds me of the old saying, "Never let the truth
stand in the way of a good story." I note that on the first page, under the
paragraph titled "The Proposal," they state that the total net asset value of
Frontier Airlines was $64 mill and they graciously through in $80 mill for
"goodwill." If you may recall the bankruptcy judge in Denver found that
after we paid off all of the debt of FAL we still had $115 mill overage in
our retirement fund, which as I recall we had to give half of that amount to
Frank Lorenzo. They also state on page 6 that, "The Frontier identity was
almost gone!," so all they would be getting is the employee's. Amazing how
different Continental thought and even the new Frontier thriving in the
Denver market.
I could go on and on about my disagreements with this pamphlet, but it
upsets my stomach just to relive those difficult times. Let me close by
saying that the FAL family got screwed by many people, including the United
MEC and UAL management. I am sorry to see anyone go through a bankruptcy,
but I must admitt the one at UAL is making me smile.
Take care,
Bob Williams

Thank you so much for your insight on this issue Sir Bob!
My memory was that we had just over $10 million excess in the pilots retirement fund
and that after paying over $100 million in lawyers fees,
and those expenses related to the bankruptcy, there was $185 million in assets for Frank Lorenzo to smile about.
We later distributed around $5 mil to the pilots and our friend Frank got the rest.
Not a bad deal for someone who only paid $10 million for the greatest little airline in the world…
I was present at all the bankruptcy court hearings and was on the creditors committee.
So, I certainly was in a position to see those things as Custodial Representative.
Now, I need to excuse myself and go throw up…
My memory may be less than accurate. And, as with you, I have put most of the thoughts of that time behind me.
Like Dave Kaplan always says: "Never look back...!"
I too do not want to see anyone else endure the horrors of a bankruptcy;
even United as there are many of our FAL folks there. However, the irony of the situation is not lost on me...
I have to admit to a strong desire to see Rick Dubinski and Jamie Lindsay and ask how they are doing these days
Billy Walker

E-mail to Billy, Dave & Bob
Thanks for the input.
I queried Mark Ingram about where he got it and he replied,
"The last page was published by the FAL pilots' legal committee, after
roughly a year of litigation and/or discovery proceedings.
Roger Brooks was chairman of that committee, both at the time and thereafter.
The rest of this material was published by the UAL ALPA MEC, and
although it was distributed to all United pilots, and was reproduced elsewhere
at the time, it was never seen by most FAL employees.
I saw it in a Delta MEC newsletter that I still subscribe to, and got permission to
republish it during the ALPA organizing campaign back in 1993.
ALPA National no longer had the document on file, but I still did - and they printed it
at my request, and mailed it to as many FAL pilots for whom we had addresses."
I'm considering posting it at the Index site with your essay and the other material on FL's last days.
I would include the rebuttals and comments by you and other pilots. What do you think?

Billy et al,
I read through all of the attached documents again and to the best of my somewhat sketchy memory,
the facts as stated were generally correct.
But the omissions in the UAL pilot's tract were glaring to me.
Never once was there mention of the UAL pilot's non-support of the
FAL employees even though they talk like they stood strongly with and beside us.
As we found out at the end, any statements that they made to us of support
turned out to be just a bunch of smoke to cover what was really going on behind our backs.
I can understand that they had to support their contract but no mention was made
that the only way to do it was to put a whole bunch of FAL employees
(mostly good union members) out on the street to protect their own new-hires.
One thing that I'll never forget is the great happiness among the rank and file
UAL pilots and flight attendants in the ORD concourses while I was waiting
to board that last flight home after it had all come to an end.
Up till that day, they never even smiled or spoke to each other.
Now they were hugging and back-slapping each other!
What that confirmed to me was that the UAL MEC represented the UAL employees well;
they didn't want us on equal terms either.

I don’t mind if you publish it, but you might wait to see if Dave Kaplan, Bill Watkins and Frosty opine on it. This thing was offensive to us when UAL MEC put it out to diffuse their guilt in our demise.
While I agree it was corporate megalomania that ultimately caused our destruction,
the UAL pilots clearly turned their backs on us after promising otherwise.
Ton’s of evidence to show this still exists.
Incidentally, we discussed the merits of publishing our own perspective of this at the time
and decided we had no money to proceed along with no time to do so as our efforts were full time to get our folks back to work.
…ala the “Job Preservation & Litigation Settlement Agreement” with Lorenzo’s henchmen…

Does a copy of the “Job Preservation & Litigation Settlement Agreement” exist somewhere?

I would imagine several exist albeit I don’t have one. I gave my files to Roger Brooks.
The only files I kept were my FAL training files, letters,
and some cases where I represented problem children being disciplined by the company.
Guess who’s that might be?
I would think Sir Frosty would have a copy. Perhaps Roger Brooks still has the files - I can’t say for sure.
Also, the agreement we made previous to that was the “October 17th Agreement” with PeoplExpress’ Don Burr.

Hi Frosty,
Do you have copies of the “October 17th Agreement”
or the “Job Preservation & Litigation Settlement Agreement” from the last days of FL?

Sorry Jake,
I pitched all that (and a whole lot more) out about 10 years ago
when we moved from the KC area to the lake area where we now live.
Too many bad memories there.


The only thing I can find is the report you already have. Perhaps
Roger Brooks has something left from the law suits... What say, Roger?
Blue Skies & Tailwinds...

Billy, et al
Amazing how this stuff never dies!!! My recollection is sketchy also
Frosty but I think a more accurate account of the flim flam that took place not only in
Chi but beginning with the meeting in Seattle? with our MEC chair present at the UAL Mec
meeting is contained in the post mortem we ( the ALPA neg. cmte) wrote
after it was all over. I don't know if anyone has a copy but we spent
several days at it at behest of the MEC. Billy, didn't you take our post
mortem to Miami and inform the various MEC's just what a bunch of crap the UAL-mec's account was? That document would be the most interesting to read because, in my opinion, it was a very
factual, objective and accurate account of the crime that took place.
Just in case anyone is feeling sorry for UAL.
Regards to all,
-Billy Watkins

I couldn't agree more on your statements about the UAL MEC. It is
amazing that this stuff never dies. I had forgotten about the post
mortem report that we had compiled for the FAL MEC. I hope Billy Walker can
find that report.
Also, do you remember that we, as the negotiations committee, gave
a letter to the UAL MEC in the last weeks in Chicago that basically said
we don't agree with what you are doing and stating that we opposed the
direction they were taking?
Anyway, my stomach still gets all churned up when I relive those
dark days, but I get even more upset when the uninformed try to search for
someone to blame.
Hope you are doing well. Thanks for you email.
-Bob Williams

Thank you Bill,
Dave Kaplan always says: "Never look back!" ...and he is right.
However, with our desire to see a true historical perspective as the end
result of this re-hash, I think it is very important to have accurate facts
of those horrendous roller coaster rides we all went on, especially
during the 1985-1986 time frame. Actually, the "ride" lasted much longer
since we tried to get legal redress for our rape and murder at the hands
of United Airlines. And I say "ride" because we really had no chance of
controlling our destiny no matter how hard we tried and how much it
cost in dollars and heartache.
When I saw the unidentified information Mark Ingram sent Jake, I felt
sure it was the UAL MEC's cover-up of their duplicity. I resent it as
much today as I did then. The audacity of their action then makes the
irony of today's news more compelling doesn't it?
I do not have the materials from back then. I believe all that went to
the lawyers handling the legal cases post-Frontier. I would doubt if it
survived after 16 years.
Hopefully, someone has it tucked away somewhere. After all, Mark came
up with the UAL MEC's Phony Pamphlet...
The review I did in 1986 was with the assistance of all of you on the
Negotiating Team. That review has survived. Jake Lamkins has it on the
Frontier Alumni site called "A Death In The Family"
<> ) . After
reviewing that again, I didn't see anything I would change. Let me know if
you fellows do.
I believe Jake hopes to produce as complete of a history of Frontier as
possible. Some bullshit and innuendo will likely be mixed with
documentation along with a variety of perspectives I don't know how one can
escape that.
Additionally, Lorraine Loflin and Carolyn Boller may have kept some of
the records of the negotiations with PEX and CAL, etc. However, with
respect to the UAL debacle, the FAL pilots were pretty much on the tip of
the spear due to the mandates of UAL's David Pringle following the
announced "purchase of Frontier."
Blue Skies & Tailwinds...

E-mail to Carolyn Boller, Rocky Patterson & Hank Lund:
Attached is a document the UA MEC put out after FL's demise explaining their actions. A FL pilot sent it to me. It also includes a report by the FL ALPA Litigation Committee. Take a look and tell me what you think re it's truthfulness, etc.

Hank reported that he wasn’t involved with the UA/FL merger talks. Neither Carolyn nor Rocky responded. To date, the “post mortem” report has not shown up.