KARL PENNER 1963 - 1969 PILOT DEN Carl sang in a barbershop quartet. He was killed with the quartet enroute to a gig when their small aircraft crashed south of PUB around Walsenberg. It may have been in the Sangre de Cristo Mountains. Everybody onboard was killed. Not sure of the date but it was before the FL bankruptcy. I flew with him when I was a FA. -Pat Williams-Harter (6/2/04) Posted at the FL Club: Pilot Carl Penner There is very little info on Carl's death. Ace's list doesn't even have a date - just need info. Pat Williams-Harter phoned today and said Carl was killed in a small plane crash near Walsenberg, CO. He sang in a barbershop quartet and they were on their way to a show. Pat can't recall the date but is sure it was before the bankruptcy. Does anyone have any info on this? -Jake Lamkins (6/2/04) Carl was involved in a plane crash in the Spanish Peaks area of southern Colorado. He was,in fact flying the plane, a Cessna 310 with members of a barber shop quartet. The date was most likely in '65 or so. I would have to dig into some logbooks to get the date. I was flying co-pilot on the CV-580 at that time and we did spend a good deal of time circling the area on route from ABQ to DEN. If anyone would like, I will look up the exact date. -Bill Truax (6/2/04) I just saw the thing on Carl Penner, that accident occured in the fall of 1967 or 1968 if my memory serves me. Carl had rented a 310 Cessna from the old Clinton Avitation at Stapleton and they were en-route to Cortez for a show that eve. They were in weather and had filed to go down south of Colo Spgs and pick-up a victor airway over to Alamosa. For some reason they missed the turn and drove straight into a mountain just to the south of La Veta pass. If memory serves me, he had 4 passengers on the ship - they all belonged to the same singing club. The weather was such that they did not find the wreckage for 4 or 5 days as they went right into the side of the mountain and the trees covered the crash site. I met Carl about a week before this happened - he and I were talking about the beginning similarity of our last names. I do think this happened not too long after the merger with Central, that was in October, there may be someone else out there that remembers more of the details -Skip Pennyweight (6/2/04) Posted at the FL Club: Based on info from Skip & Bill Truax, I found this info at the NTSB: NTSB Identification: DEN69A0040 14 CFR Part 91 General Aviation Event occurred Saturday, March 22, 1969 in LAVETA, CO Aircraft: CESSNA 310I, registration: N8011M --------------------------- FILE DATE LOCATION AIRCRAFT DATA INJURIES FLIGHT PURPOSE PILOT DATA 3-0663 69/3/22 LAVETA,COLO CESSNA 310I CR- 1 0 0 NONCOMMERCIAL AIRLINE TRANSPORT, AGE TIME - 1448 N8011M PX- 5 0 0 PLEASURE/PERSONA 37, 8700 TOTAL HOURS, DAMAGE-DESTROYED OT- 0 0 0 INSTRUMENT RATED. TYPE OF ACCIDENT PHASE OF OPERATION COLLISION WITH GROUND/WATER: CONTROLLED IN FLIGHT: NORMAL CRUISE PROBABLE CAUSE(S) PILOT IN COMMAND - IMPROPER IFR OPERATION FACTOR(S) TERRAIN - HIGH OBSTRUCTIONS MISSING AIRCRAFT - LATER RECOVERED REMARKS- RECOVERY DATE-3/28/69. PLT OVER FLEW VOR INTERSECTION. STRUCK MT PEAK IN FLT PATH. Does a date of Saturday 3/22/69 at 1448 sound right? -Jake Lamkins (6/2/04) Bill, good morning from Montrose, you are right, I do remember their was something came up that the 310 he had rented either had the DME out or he just missed the radial off Alamosa for some reason, guess that is one we will never know. Don't know why I remembered that he had rented that 310 from Clinton, heck, I have trouble remembering my own name anymore. I think it stuck in my mind because I had just met him in our old crew room right below the tower at Stapleton, he and I were joking about his spelling and of course my name had a few more letters in it, seemed like a really nice guy, that was one of those that hit hard, then we had the fiasco in December when Crane and Cochran got killed in that 3. -Skip Pennyweight (6/3/04) I think it was fall to early winter of 67. We both had checked out on the DC-3 and I flew it until 68 when I checked out on the 580. As I remember it, he didn't make the turn at Walsenburg and flew into the west peak of the spanish peaks. -Billy Watkins (6/3/04) That sounds good to me. I for some reason thought it was right after I went to work at the ole FAL, but after two years at the FAA that date should be right----thanks. -Skip Pennyweight (6/3/04) Posted at the FL Club: I went thru the NTSB database (http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/query.asp) for 1967 thru 1969 and the only accident that fits is the 3/22/69 one. If anyone has some 1969 FL NEWS, maybe there is something in one to pin this down. I was surprised at the numbers of accidents in Colorado! That terrain doesn't leave much margin for error. -Jake Lamkins (6/3/04) Posted at the FL Club: The Social Security Death Index has KARL PENNER Born 09 Dec 1931 Died Mar 1969 Age 37 SSN issued in Kansas This seems to pin it down as being the 3/22/69 accident. -Jake (6/3/04) Jake, I think that pins it down to the date it happened, I for some reason thought it was in the fall of 67, but time does blur memories and more. And as to the CO. thing, as far as accidents in small aircraft, CO. ranks right below Alaska in number of small aircraft accidents, due to our high altitude and warm days and of course we have a lot of terra firma above 13,000 ft, most seem to happen in the winter when folks from the flat country come up to go skiing and pay no attention to the winds over the rockies, don't think they have as yet built a small airplane that can overcome the high altitude and heavy winds from the west to the east, I have a standing rule myself that if the winds over the mountains are above 20 kts I go get another cup of coffee and plan something else for the day, course after 30 plus years of the heavy iron I have a yellow streak a mile wide when it comes to light aircraft, we used to call the Convair the "Mountain Master" and that was a very good machine for going into some of the places we flew that bird, ie--Gunnison, Hayden, Farmington, Cortez, Cody just to name a few, Montrose was a piece of cake, oh, I forgot the night landings in Moab, that was a thrill, even on a clear night......... -Skip Pennyweight (6/3/04) Thanks for the research. I thought, like Skip, that it was the fall of 67. Isn't it amazing how things slip by! I was part of a small group of capts, including Carl, that checked out in the DC-3 in 67 (we were the last DC-3 crews at FAL) so the sorrow of it hit a little closer. -Billy Watkins (6/4/04) I was looking through some of the old stuff I have from Dad's days at Frontier. I have some Sunliner News, Frontier News, and Arrow Jet News. I found a Frontier News dated March 1969, and a September 1969, but neither of them said anything about this. -Darin Smith (Son of Bob Smith, deceased) (6/4/04) I remember Carl well and some of the details on his accident. I met him when Jack Robbins was giving Carl and I some training on the DC-3. I had just been recently hired by FAL. I was the junior pilot in our July 67 class along with Skip Pennyweight. The senior guys were able to get in the Convair simulator while I was pulled out of CV-580 school to go to the DC-3. However, before I was trained, I was put back into the Convair 580 and never flew the DC-3 on the line. Regarding the accident, I believe the 1969 date was correct. Carl and some pals he sang the barber shop quartet with were on their way to Durango. As Billy Watkins surmised, he missed the turn and hit the closest Spanish Peak near the top and bounced over landing on the west slope. I recall the probable cause was that the VOR needle stuck causing him to miss the turn. A sad end to a very affable fellow. -Billy Walker (6/6/04) Re Karl Penner crash, he flew into the West Spanish Peak elevation 13626 ft. msl; the town of La Veta is 10 miles nw of the peak and La Veta pass elevation 9413 ft. msl is 20 miles nw of the peak. We all were very fortunate to work for the best airline ever and the best people ever as well! -Ernie Van Winkle, DENDD (10/24/08) K. H. PENNER Pilot seniority date of 3/1/63 on the 10/28/67 FL/ALPA seniority list. I could not find anything in my 1969 FL NEWS and Frontierman newsletters, however I do not have the April issues which is what it was probably in. -Jake Lamkins (10/26/08) Posted at the FL Club Updated memorial webpage KARL PENNER 1963 - 1969 PILOT DEN http://FAL-1. tripod.com/ Karl_Penner. html Still need a photo and/or obituary for Karl. -Jake Lamkins (10/27/08) Hello FAL Friends, Ron Gallop called me the other night. He was a friend of Karl Penner and is looking into Karl's accident. He has found out that Karl's plane crashed on the southwest side of Spanish Peak not on the northeast side as one would expect from what most of us know. He would like to hear from anyone who has information about this accident. He plans to make a hike to the crash site this summer and wonders if the plane is still there. Please send any information to Ron and copy me in as I too am interested. -Denny Finke (1/15/10) Hi Denny & Ron, Thanks for cc:ing me on this email. All the info I've gathered on Karl is posted on his memorial webpage at the FL website. Do either of you have a photo of Karl I could use? Please let me know anything else you learn and I'll update his webpage. -Jake Lamkins (1/15/10) I am looking into this crash thru the government and all sources that I can find. I am going to visit the site this summer (it doesn't lose all the snow till August) and see if I can determine anything else about this. -Ron Gallop (1/15/10) Yes, it would be nice if we could find a picture of Karl. I don't have one, but maybe someone will come up with one. Billy sent us the letter below: I think you have most of that in the file already. -Denny Finke (1/15/10) Karl's 310 did, in fact, initially hit the east face near the top of the ridge bouncing over and coming to rest on the southwest side. I did my DC-3 training with Karl (I thought it was Carl!) when he was up-grading. I thought he was a super fellow. As I recall, Hank Lund had planned on going along, but cancelled out. Ol' Hank sang with Karl and their barbershop quartet. Fate is the Hunter. I think about Karl often. I got into his accident early on as I couldn't believe, anyone as sharp as he was, would fly into the Spanish Peaks like that. As I recall, according to crash scene investigator Cecil Metzker (FAA), he had his Omni bearing selectors set for the intersection but the needle stuck, he flew thru the radial instead of making the turn and, well we know what happened. Damn! All on board were really nice people, we could use more folks like them. -Billy Walker (1/15/10) I have been quietly researching the Karl Penner crash for a couple of years but only recently (like in the last month) have I gotten anywhere with this. I now think I know what happened but am waiting for some archival records from the government before saying for sure. I looked at the site today and saw one of my Google earth pictures on there. I certainly don't mind you using anything that I have but since that pictures was generated, we have found it to be in error. In the last two days I have talked with two men who were on the recovery of the bodies and know for a fact that the location that you are showing with that pictures is in error. Those coordinates were provided by the government. Need I say more? I will attach three pictures to this email and you will see the actual crash site with the recovery guys on it and a topo map of the area and another better Google photo that shows the exact site verified by the guys that were there. I am trying to find a photo of Karl, he and I were both from ICT and I have a couple of sources down there that can probably help. If I get it, you will receive it immediately. More as I find it. When you see the crash scene it will break your heart. If he had been 25 feet higher or 50 feet to the left, he would have missed it. I forgot that you needed a date, it occured on Saturday, March 22, 1969 -Ron Gallop (1/18/10) Thanks for the updates and corrections. Karl's webpage has the new pix posted and the erroneous ones removed. -Jake Lamkins (1/19/10) As most of you know I have been trying to find some sense to the Karl Penner accident of 3-22-1969. This has bothered me since the accident happened as Karl and I followed nearly identical paths to FAL. I always got the job that Karl had just left so I heard more about him than I actually spent time with him. I remembered right after the merger (CN/FAL) that I had heard two FAL pilots in the crew room discussing the fact that they had flown the same Cessna 310 rented from Clinton Aviation and that the DME indicator had a habit of sticking. It was a meter type DME and not digital. Of course I can't remember who the pilots were; we had just merged and there were more people I did not know than I knew. I had thought that if his DME had stuck, he may have been depending on it for identification of the WALSENBURG intersection. As you can see from the attached chart segment that took two months to get from the government at no small expense, once at WALSENBURG at 13000 you are supposed to be able to receive ALS at that location and altitude. The WX that day was horrible and icing was at least moderate so it is probably safe to assume that he had iced antennas and may not have been able to hear ALS at 13000 at WALSENBURG. And since the DME was counting up as he went away from PUB, if it stuck, he would have overflown WALSENBURG intersection and if he did that, West Spanish Peak was just under 3 minutes South of him at the intersection. If you plot the 190° radial of PUB, it takes you to the Spanish Peaks. V83 now goes down the 178° radial of PUB, a change made because of this accident. Billy Walker provided the information that the airplane hit the West Spanish Peak right at the crest part of the airplane careened over the top and down the west face of West Spanish Peak. This was positively confirmed when I spoke with Bill May and Rod Smythe who were with the Rocky Mountain Rescue Group and were some of the first on scent at the accident. A photo of the impact point is provided by Rod Smythe of RMRG. It is obvious with the photo that if he had been 20 feet higher or 30 feet to the left the accident would have never happened. The picture is old and you can see seven guys in the picture, look just in front of the one guy NOT standing on the ridge. There is not much left on the impact side, looks like probably some bottom wing skins but like Billy said, most of it went over the hill. Rod Smythe shared with me that he went 700 feet down the west side of West Spanish and recovered a headless, legless torso with a wedding ring he estimated weighed 70 pounds. I was told that all bodies were severed at the waist due seat belts. All of what I now know of this accident would not have been possible without the information of Bill May, Rod Smythe,George Albright, Billy Walker and others. Emily Howell chased down the mechanic that maintained the airplane and spoke with him concerning it's mechanical condition. He did not remember anything about the DME problem. Unless somehow I can find the two FAL pilots that had flown this particular airplane and noticed the DME problems, probably not much more will be done about this accident. I am willing to foot the bill on going to D.C. and trying to talk to the FAA about possibly changing the probable cause finding. Now that Randy Babbitt is head of the agency we now have a former ALPA member and I was hoping to be able to appeal to him and try to get it changed. On the other hand, I was on the MEC in 1975 and when we got booted out of ALPA for a couple of weeks, he was one I argued with a lot so maybe I'm not the best messenger. Anyway, it will probably be a moot point unless someone who flew the airplane (N8011M) is found that could offer corroboration. Thank you all for you support up to this point; if anybody has any further information please contact me, I will disseminate with all parties concerned. The key is to find those other FAL guys that flew that airplane. -Ron Gallop (4/3/10) Jake/Emily/Billy Jake: Would you put a note out to all of the pilot folks asking: "Did any of you ever fly a Cessna 310 rented at Clinton Aviation with an N number of N8011M? If so please contract Ron Gallop at av8r@kc.rr.com in regard to the Karl Penner accident" For this to move any farther we are going to have to find out who else flew this airplane. Emily: Would you talk to your mechanic friend who maintained this airplane and see if he might remember any FAL folks that flew it, or anyone else still alive that flew it. Billy: I somehow seem to recall that you flew some at Clinton. If so, do you remember anyone else that flew this airplane? I would appreciate any help I can get on this. -Ron Gallop (4/4/10) Ron, Thanks for the additional info. I'll add both emails to Karl's memorial website and also post at the FL Club. I may develop an article for the FL newsletter too. -Jake Lamkins (4/4/10) Grady Kerr emailed with info about an article he had written about Karl and his barbershop quarter. All of them died in the crash. Grady kindly gave me permission to share his article with Karl's FL friends and family. -Jake Lamkins (6/21/12) Posted at FLacebook and the FL Club: Pilot Karl Penner's memorial webpage has been updated. http://FAL-1.tripod.com/Karl_Penner.html I received a terrific article about Karl and his barbershop quartet. All of them died in the 1969 crash. Post your remembrances of Karl. I still need a pic of him. -Jake Lamkins (6/21/12) I have fond memories of flying with Karl. Karl and I were paired together for DC-3 training. Jack Robbins was the instructor and it was in July of 1967. Karl was a special fellow. He has been and will be missed. Ron Gallup has done extensive research into Karl's accident when the Cessna 310 he was flying struck one of the Spanish Peaks enroute to DRO for the barbershop quartet gathering. Apparently, Hank Lund (a member of this group) was unable to go... Hopefully, Ron will publish his findings one of these days. KUDOS to Ron for his efforts which include contacting a former NTSB chairman who was also a Frontier VP, Dan Todd, and other's to correct an incomplete and largely inaccurate Probable Cause... -Billy Walker (6/21/12) A typo in the Barbershop article........Karl was one of the best INSTRUMENT pilots I knew. Not 'instrumental'. -Ron Gallop (6/22/12) John Paul Carey and I drove to DFW a couple of weeks ago for the crew luncheon there. Only four DFW guys were there, not surprising when I consider I was the youngest of the entire Central group and I'm older than dirt. Present were Everett Mayo, Jim Ford, George Ceshker and Bob Churchill. I invited Tony Penner (DAL Capt. 737-900) to join us and he did. He told his brother that he was going to meet with me and Bruce jumped on a flight and showed from Boulder. Had a great chat with the boys and considering that they have more of a vested interest in submitting the accident for further review and all of the boys are certainly qualified to do so, I left the pursuit of Karl's accident in their capable hands. Not there was Gordon who is the 747 Capt. for Atlas. The guy on the left is Tony, the one on the right is Bruce. Thought you might like this picture. -Ron Gallop (1/31/13) I want to add a photo of Karl if you have one. I'm attaching the pdf file for the magazine article which has two photos of the group but they are not clearly ID'd. Tell me which one is Karl and maybe I can crop out a pic for the memorial webpage. -Jake Lamkins (1/31/13) To Bruce and Tony: I sent the e-mail below to Billy Walker. As I have told you both, Billy and your dad checked out on the DC-3 together. While Tony will probably have a hard time envisioning an airline class of two people in an upgrade, it really happened on smaller airlines. Billy has provided invaluable help throughout my investigation of this incident. He also flew with your dad extensively because they were both at the bottom of the DC-3 crew list. Billy took the liberty of sharing the photo of you two with Jake Lamkins who is the unofficial historian of the first Frontier Airlines group. Jake has tirelessly continued to document your Dad's incident, and as you can see, has requested a photograph of your Dad. The only photograph I have of him is the one it in the barbershop quartet magazine. And, nobody can definitively say which one of the guys in that photograph was Karl. So if you join you guys has a picture of Karl, especially if it's an airline uniform, would you mind passing along so they can be added to our historical site. I went to the weather Bureau office in Kansas City two days ago looking for weather data from the day of the incident. Had an interesting tour of the facilities but they could not provide anything we could use. They did direct me to the National Climate Data Center which is the place where all historical climatic data is stored. I was informed that due to the age of this request that the only thing I could reasonably expect to get out of it would be winds aloft for March 22, 1969. The man I spoke with said he would contact me but it would be a week or two before he had the data. I will keep you posted on what this produces. I know that Jake would appreciate any additions or corrections that either of you could offer to the website. Thanks for your help, really enjoyed seeing you guys last week in DFW. -Ron Gallop (1/31/13) Here are a few photos attached. Don't seem to have any with dad in his Frontier uniform. File IMG_0002.jpeg is dad in about the 1955 timeframe (no date on picture). File IMG_0149.jpeg is dad in about the 1955 timeframe in USAF uniform. File IMG_0086.jpeg is dad with sons Gordon (left) and Tony (middle) in Spring 1962. File IMG_0044.jpeg is dad in USAF flight suit in Jan 1956. -Bruce Penner (2/1/13) Thanks, Bruce; I'll be posting those to your dad's memorial webpage. -Jake Lamkins (2/1/13) Posted at FLacebook and the FL Club: DEN pilot Karl Penner's memorial webpage has been updated. http://FAL-1.tripod.com/Karl_Penner.html Several photos added thanks to Ron Gallop and Karl's son Bruce. -Jake Lamkins (2/2/13)